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Archive 1 |
I changed "with origins lost to the flow of time" to "with unknown origins." There is a quote on the omniglot webpage (external link) that says "The origins of the Theban alphabet are lost in the mists of time." Come on, change the wording a little bit more so you don't flagrantly violate someone else's intellectual property rights.
I've removed the "word separator" that was included in the transliteration list. This is not a traditional way of separating words written in Theban. I suspect that the font used for the images is a font that I created a few years ago (here), which included a couple of "separators" for decorative purposes. If words are going to be separated with anything other than spaces, it is generally for the purpose of disguise, making the cipher that much harder to crack. In this case the separating characters are very similar in style to the alphabet letters. Fuzzypeg 12:32, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
I was going to add in some information about an alchemical alphabet that I believe predates Agrippa, and bears a strong resemblance to Theban. This is it, as I copied it down (being quite careful with the shapes):
Unfortunately I've lost my record of where I found it. It may be in one of Nigel Pennick's books, or it may be in a rather large book of magical alphabets in my old university library (unfortunately in a different city, and I can't remember what the book was called). Can anyone help? Fuzzypeg 09:33, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
Finally tracked it down, at least another couple of steps: The Lure and Romance of Alchemy by C.J.S. Thompson. Page 130: "Secret alphabets and ciphers were employed for recording processes which were regarded as of special importance. Three of these alphabets, taken from manuscripts of the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries, are here reproduced.". The following page has three alphabets, one being the one shown above. I might try to upload a better image. Of course the (inexact) dating of it would tend to suggest it is a derivative of Trithemius' script or another earlier script, not a precursor. Fuzzypeg☻ 05:23, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
I edited the portion about Theban being *the* Witches' Alphabet, as we use several. Some use Malachim as well. Some create their own. Blessings, Morgana
Heya. In fact, the first known (to my knowledge) document describing Theban alphabet wasn't in Agrippa's book (1531) but in Johannes Trithemius' book V of his Polygraphia (1518). He also credits it being from Honorius of Thebes (possibly legendary). You can found easily on Google PDFs and scans of the Polygraphia, both in latin (1518) and the french translation from 1651. 157.99.64.13 16:27, 12 December 2006 (UTC)Ben
There, I uploaded scans of Agrippa's Of Occult Philosophia (1538) and Trithemius' Polygraphia (1518). Agrippa cites Peter Apponus (Petrus d'Abano, etc) as his source for theban, while Trithemius cites just Honorius of Thebes.
Here are Agrippa scans, from the english translation (Ff3, pages 437-438, Book III) http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/7190/agrippa1yx6.jpg http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/7328/agrippa2jg4.jpg
Here is Trithemius scan, from the french translation of 1561 (page 184, Book V) http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/1444/cesr48950404ym2.jpg (rough translation : "Another alphabet, by which Honorius, alias Thebanus, describes "occultly" his rules and ordonnances of magic")
I couldn't find the link today to the pdf, but I can send you via email. I have seen a scan from the latin edition of Polygraphia, in which the name of Petrus d'Abano is also cited while it has been removed in the french translation. So far from what I've found, all points to that guy, but I was yet unable to find pdf or books of his works.
Another thing to look into would be Steganographia by Trithemius (1499), which apparently contain ciphers and alphabets, it may have Theban.
(I have not edited the wikipedia article yet, I think it would be good to get as much information as available) 157.99.64.13 14:38, 13 December 2006 (UTC)Ben (edit : registered at wiki Nyctophilia 16:41, 13 December 2006 (UTC))
Also, here's from Trithemius' latin version of Polygraphia : http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/9366/poly579cp6.jpg Which, as you see, contains explicit reference to Petrus d'Abano as well. "... dixit what Petrus de Apono testifies in his major book IV" I don't know to what book it refers, but it would be very interesting to check. As well as the Steganographia. I've had a chance to check Petrus d'Abano's Heptameron, but it contains no reference to Theban. I added some minor stuff to the page like links to Trithemius and Abano, plus dates of birth and death. Nyctophilia 08:18, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
Here is a larger version of Theban from Polygraphia. http://img184.imageshack.us/img184/3364/polygraphbigthebannw2.jpg I also edited a bit the text, since in old latin, letters j, v, w simply didn't exist, hence the profusion of alchemical alphabets calqued from latin who appears to have no character for those letters and the same as i and u are used instead. Also, "W" as a letter was invented quite recently, old english texts always use 'vv' instead. Nyctophilia 09:40, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
I removed this line from the page:
So how come this image (from the 1651 French version) lists an equivalent of the ampersand, and not the full stop character? --Ptcamn 00:50, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
This page ONLY contains the contents of the French Agrippen Theban and should not be confused with the Latin. Also, this page contains the "AGrippan," Version that is not the original Theban. These letter are slightly inaccurate due to the miscopies that were transcribed off of the prints that were made from the broken wooden plates. Thus this version that you see are slightly inaccurate. To learn more, contact the NWC, Intl.; PO Box 162046, Sacramento, CA 95816 USA. -- 07:49, 13 November 2008 99.149.222.69
Nice work! AnonMoos (talk) 04:06, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
"The Theban alphabet is also known as the Theban Script or Angelic Script, and it is said[by whom?] that it's one of several different scripts used to communicate with angels. It's also said[by whom?] that, when someone wants to petition an angel for help, it's more powerful if written with this script. The Theban alphabet has been said[by whom?] to be used by witches, pagans, and wiccans to cast spells, either by writing out the glyphs and then burning the paper, or carving them in ceremonial stones. It also is rumored that Theban script is what the Demonic Bible is written in, which is contradictory to the use of the script to commune with angels and is more likely to be propaganda against magical practices"
To avoid confusion and hurt feelings, I should state clearly what my objection is not: Theban alphabet is an entirely uncontroversial, well-edited presentation of what all the trusted, published, paid-for secondary sources have been saying for decades on the topic, entirely in accord with Wikipedia's policies.
A frequent problem in "occult" topics is that secondary sources may have echo-chambered each other for decades or even centuries, thus setting a claim in stone as far as Wikipedia is concerned — but its foundation may truly be sand.
Meanwhile, others might be able to cite specific evidence, say "No, look here and here for yourself, with your own eyes" — and settle the matter, among the reasonable. ... Except on Wikipedia, where that's rejected out-of-hand as "original research", so that the old misconception remains enthroned. Let's see if this is a case in point. – •Raven .talk 17:02, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
Well, that's confusing, isn't it? Is our runes runic or isn't they? (And is our children educated?) May I suggest one short simple path to the light, so you could if you like revise the article accordingly? (I have no wish to edit-war, so I won't edit it at all.)
Follow that little blue link to Runic alphabet and ponder the actual meaning of "runic". It isn't limited to the angular-shaped Norse/Germanic carved letters. And I quote:
Was Theban a secret alphabet? Then it was in this sense a "runic" alphabet.The name runes contrasts with Latin or Greek letters. ... The name is from a root run- (Gothic runa), meaning "secret" or "whisper". ... The name rune itself, taken to mean "secret, something hidden", seems to indicate that knowledge of the runes was originally considered esoteric, or restricted to an elite.
Perhaps you think I'm playing modern word-games with you. No. Go read "Runes and Runic Magic in Old Germanic Religion" by Diego Ferioli at the New Antaios Journal (excerpt):
Thus when Paul tells the Ephesians (3:4) of "the mystery of Christ," in the Gothic text that's "runai Xristaus." (The rune of Christ doesn't mean he was an angular carved Norse or Germanic character, does it? Outside some people's imaginations, that is.) Any more questions whether Theban was likewise "runic" — in the non-angular/carved sense? – •Raven .talk 17:02, 14 February 2013 (UTC)(W)hen Wulfila (4th c. AD) translated the Bible from Greek into Gothic, he rendered Greek μυστήριον (mystérion) "mystery", συμβούλιον (symboúlion) and βουλή (boulé), meaning "counsel", with Gothic runa.
Let's kick that poor dead "runic" equine some more: look at the Theban character that does triple duty for U/V/W, sort of angular/carved-looking.... Now go look at the rune
(Wunjō) that does triple duty in Norse for U/V/W; oooh, does that mean Theban is at least partly a carved-runic alphabet after all? (Not really: cf. Nabatean
(Waw), a very old and widespread Semitic character.) But now, d'you want to take another look at the Theban "L"
and the rune
(Laguz), flipping one or the other vertically? Or compare the Theban "F"
and "A"
to the corresponding runes
(Fehu) and
(Ansuz), flipping them horizontally? Or the Theban "E"
and rune
(Ehwaz), no flips at all?
For more kicks, consider the shapes, if not the values, of a few Georgian (Mkhedruli) letters, e.g. (requires Unicode support):
ი ლ ო რ ს უ ღ vs, say, Theban
Is there a similar aesthetic at work? And if there is... so what? Given that the reputed script creators (Mesrop Mashtots of Armenia and Honorius of Thebes, whichever "Thebes" the latter denoted) came from the same religious culture (Eastern Christianity) and part of the world, some kinship would have been about as surprising between their scripts as between the superficially visually different Glagolitic and Cyrillic. – •Raven .talk 17:02, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
This is a modern script devised to help modern readers, by making the glyphs not so terribly alike (e.g. notice the closed top loop on the modern "B", compared to the old y-like character's open top which left A and B almost identical).
That's a perfectly honest and honorable reason to develop a new font; typographers compete all the time to accomplish more legible, useful, and beautiful scripts, and are justly celebrated when they achieve it. However, these are not usually then also presented elsewhere as being the original historical script.
If Wikipedia is showing readers a new version (which has letters made not to resemble each other too much) in order to demonstrate that the older version (not shown so big and clear) "bears little resemblance to other alphabets," isn't that manipulating the evidence?
In fact, given Wikipedia's influence as a reference source, isn't this quiet switcheroo unduly popularizing the modern script in place of the historical script? People can come here, copy the chart, and think they're learning the Olde Ways — not realizing they're learning to handwrite a computer font designed by someone who was dissatisfied with the original glyphs. When the product's not clearly labeled, I think at some level they're being cheated. And that makes this a stereotype of shoddy New Age marketing.
FYI, please note that the old script has not been universally abandoned, e.g.: http://wiccanone.org.uk/images/theban.jpg – •Raven .talk 17:02, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
As Theban is an ink-and-quill, manuscript-lettering alphabet, naturally it doesn't look like wood-carved glyphs; but calling it "not runic" for that reason would require calling the runic manuscript Codex Runicus "not runic", which seems just a bit senseless to me. – •Raven .talk 01:33, 16 February 2013 (UTC)
And the Ge'ez script used to write Ethiopian-regional languages, that's unicase as well... so is it also a cipher calqued on Latin, rather than (as everyone had thought) based on ancient South Arabian consonant-glyphs but attaching vowel-signs to create a syllabary? Well, gee, that might explain yet another odd similarity in letter-shapes to Theban!
ሂ· ደ·
ሢ·
ጣ·
ሗ·
ሤ·
ህ·
ሄ·
ሀ·
ሯ·
ኍ·
ኂ·
ጤ·
ጡ·
ጾ·
ጢ·
ኔ·
ጓ·
የ·
ቈ·
ጧ·
··· ትዉሠ·
Truly amazing how there are no scripts anywhere in the world with glyphs bearing resemblance to the Theban letters... until you actually open your eyes and look for them... right?
And is it clear now that the above-quoted suggestion about unicase scripts originating as ciphers (like other claims in the article) has no basis to be made by Wikipedia to its trusting readers? – •Raven .talk 07:51, 16 February 2013 (UTC)
So I'm not the first one to notice that the glyphs of the SVG files that someone made are rather different than the original Theban glyphs. Some are similar (A, K, O), while others look like the SVG artist pulled them right outta their ass (B, E, Y, and Z). My question is, why are they on here? If I (or someone else) re-created the glyphs to look more like their original counterparts, I think they should be on the page too. Eridani (talk) 19:06, 22 October 2014 (UTC)
This claim is easily disproven by taking a look at the characters found within the Amharic alphabet. Most used in theban have been directly stripped from the Semitic language. and while the origins are unknown, one cannot deny the founder of theban to have taken these pre-existing characters. I suggest someone with further information in this topic edits and aids in dismantling misleading information. Koox washausen (talk) 03:29, 1 September 2020 (UTC)
I changed the picture to the original Latin version. This way, it becomes clear Trithemius intended the last letter was W, not "end of sentence" nor ampersand. It's understandable how this misunderstanding happened. Because W comes out of order (not between V and X), later copyists mistook W as ω (lower case Omega), and ω became a part of the letter. Viking Rollo (talk) 21:32, 10 September 2020 (UTC)