This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Theodore Roosevelt article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.
This article is written in American English, which has its own spelling conventions (color, defense, traveled) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus.
Theodore Roosevelt is a former featured article. Please see the links under Article milestones below for its original nomination page (for older articles, check the nomination archive) and why it was removed.
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Wikipedia's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography articles
This article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks. To use this banner, please see the full instructions.Military historyWikipedia:WikiProject Military historyTemplate:WikiProject Military historymilitary history articles
This article has been checked against the following criteria for B-class status:
This article is within the scope of WikiProject New York (state), a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the U.S. stateofNew York on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.New York (state)Wikipedia:WikiProject New York (state)Template:WikiProject New York (state)New York (state) articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject New York City, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of New York City-related articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.New York CityWikipedia:WikiProject New York CityTemplate:WikiProject New York CityNew York City articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Homeschooling, a project which is currently considered to be inactive.HomeschoolingWikipedia:WikiProject HomeschoolingTemplate:WikiProject HomeschoolingHomeschooling articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject College football, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of college football on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.College footballWikipedia:WikiProject College footballTemplate:WikiProject College footballcollege football articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Politics, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of politics on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.PoliticsWikipedia:WikiProject PoliticsTemplate:WikiProject Politicspolitics articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject United States, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of topics relating to the United States of America on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the ongoing discussions.
This article is within the scope of WikiProject History, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the subject of History on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.HistoryWikipedia:WikiProject HistoryTemplate:WikiProject Historyhistory articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Conservatism, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of conservatism on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.ConservatismWikipedia:WikiProject ConservatismTemplate:WikiProject ConservatismConservatism articles
I went through and counted up all the Harvard cite warnings and Harvard cite errors in this article... there are 63 Harvard cite warnings and 3 Harvard errors. If anyone around here wonders what I am referring to, I have "User:Trappist the monk/HarvErrors.js" installed on my common.js page so I get to see ALLLLLL the Harvard cite problems in an article and man there are sure a lot fo them here. I am going to try to work my way through fixing everything, might take me a while. If anyone else wants to jump in and work on this together, feel free. Shearonink (talk) 04:06, 18 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed Gould/Four hats. One of the inline cites was to the whole book/had no page numbers. TG for Project MUSE. I don't know if any of the other errant Harvard cites are also missing page numbers...I sure hope not. If so, this will probably turn into a long-term project that is going to take Too Much Time. Yay. Shearonink (talk) 05:25, 18 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks to Nikkimaria who fixed almost all of the remaining Harv cite issues. I've adjusted one more reference and the only two I see now remaining are 2 referencing puzzles, somewhat unique unto themselves = The Works and the Roosevelt Cyclopedia. Shearonink (talk) 05:56, 19 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Both of these are cited inline in the text - there are actually quite a few books still cited inline in the text that could be moved, even though they don't cause visible errors. Nikkimaria (talk) 05:59, 19 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The black-and-white one is artificially desaturated and also unrestored. It's misleading to present a sepia print as a black and white one. That no-one realised it was misleading because the person who uploaded it didn't say they made changes to it anywhere on the file description page is not a good reason to go back to it. Adam Cuerden(talk)Has about 8.8% of all FPs.14:42, 28 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The black-and-white original is held by the LOC here. My understanding is that sepia toning is in fact an "artificial saturation" - but I don't think originality should be the defining factor here. The crop in the black and white image is better - the sepia one has too much empty space. Additionally, we should view it in the context of what other U.S. president articles feature. ITBF (talk) 17:10, 28 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That is completely inaccurate. First of all, that's not the source of the image. That is a secondary image from "b&w film copy neg" E.g. a scan of a photograph of the photograph. It's under two megabytes in size. The Library of Congress rescanned it from the original, https://www.loc.gov/pictures/item/2002718198/ - that is the actual colours of the photo. It's sepia. That's perfectly normal for prints; generally speaking, the only old photos that are natually fully black and white are scans directly from the original photographic glass plates.
Thirdly, the black and white is unrestored. There's numerous scratches and spots on the image. The lead image should direct people to the best possible image of the person, so that people seeking images for reuse find the best possible image. Most reusers are capable of desaturating an image themselves, if they must. Adam Cuerden(talk)Has about 8.8% of all FPs.17:15, 28 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Emiya1980: Would a {{CSS image crop}} to similar dimensions be acceptable? It has the advantage of linking to the uncropped image, which has advantages for people wanting to reuse it (they can crop it to the size and dimensions they want, and have all the image to choose from to make their crop.) If you're not familiar, it's... slightly more complex to set up - I can do that - but offers more flexibility. And it presents the full-size version to MediaViewer, Google searches, and so on; again, probably better for image reusers. Adam Cuerden(talk)Has about 8.8% of all FPs.14:38, 29 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Emiya1980: I've set up something that should be roughly as discussed, based on File:President Roosevelt - Pach Bros - black and white (cropped).jpg's crop.. If something's off about it, let me know. It is a little bigger, but I'm not sure that's the worst thing in a lead image. Arguably a better fit for the infobox. It can be shrunk, but it requires a surprising amount of math to do so, so I'd suggest bossing me around as I know how to do it. Adam Cuerden(talk)Has about 8.8% of all FPs.22:03, 30 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There is as much space at the top as there is in the black and white - I had to add some as it kept being clearly less, and the size is shrinkable easy enough. I don't think a crop helps much, because it doesn't readily link the original image for reusers at the MediaViewer level. But I can tweak. Adam Cuerden(talk)Has about 8.8% of all FPs.01:05, 31 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Had to fix the cHeight - it was creating blank space between image and caption (compare [1] with [2]) - but other than that minor fix, I'm fine with it.
You may allow your mind to wander at this point. It gets annoyingly mathematical from here
Long story short - and this is where CSS image crop gets annoying - if you want to include the bottom of the image, you have to calculate what the height of the image you're cropping from is, and then subtract from that whatever oTop is, because that's the amount you're cropping from the top, and that's the height of the crop you want. If you're cropping from the bottom, you can just trial by error cHeight until you've cropped out exactly what you want to crop from the bottom.
The calculation, by the way, using the parameters for CSS image crop, is: cHeight = (bWidth * (Original height) / (Original width)) - oTop. You can get the original height and original width from the file description page. In this case, the original image is 3,067 × 3,659 pixels. Adam Cuerden(talk)Has about 8.8% of all FPs.03:26, 31 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There is a way to make this a little simpler, but I need to figure out if Lua allows you to get the original width and height of an image, or if I'd need to ask for them to be added.
Alternative image proposal
all this hustle because of 10% of empty space in a high quality historic photo? There is no need for crop or css, the photo is good as it is. Artem.G (talk) 07:27, 30 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Just curious, the last two sentences of the "Naval history and strategy" subsection: "It has been commonly believed that Roosevelt's ideas were almost entirely derived from Mahan's book. An alternate view was put forth by naval historian, Nicolaus J. Danby who felt that Roosevelt's ideas on sea power predated Mahan's book."
Suppositions or accusations, not based on facts, are usually considered rumors. The first paragraph identifies Roosevelt's book as being published in 1882. Mahan's book (the second paragraph) was published in 1890 or eight years later.
This is not exactly in line with the source. A caption under a picture states, "Historians long have credited Alfred Thayer Mahan with shaping Theodore Roosevelt’s ideas about sea power". This is not the same as a possibility of plagiarism or copyright infringement of a book that was yet to be printed.
A theory considered "far-fetched" would be that of Donald Wilhelm, that Roosevelt stumbled across a book in the Harvard College library, "a work on the naval history of the War of 1812", by James Fenimore Cooper. The article states he wrote the History of the Navy of the United States of America in 1839. There is some plausibility to this scenario. The bottom line is that I feel the wording needs to be changed. -- Otr500 (talk) 16:26, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It should be noted that Teddy was not a progressive until his second run for president which failed. 104.192.26.23 (talk) 18:59, 19 March 2024 (UTC) Richard Ely, the main "Progressive" (i.e. Big Government) thinker of the time, had a large influence on Theodore Roosevelt long before 1912 - as Theodore Roosevelt himself admitted.[reply]
In the time of President Theodore Roosevelt being a "liberal" meant being pro liberty - reducing government spending, taxes, regulations and-so-on. In the time of President Theodore Roosevelt liberals were his arch opponents on economic policy, and on his lack of concern for Civil Liberties, the Rule of Law - for example his support of lynching of Italian men accused, but not convicted, of crimes in Louisiana. There also appears to be no section in the article on Theodore Roosevelt's support for lynching - which most Republicans were against. 2A02:C7C:E183:AC00:A4B5:E79C:4BFC:5E50 (talk) 16:11, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The Comments of President Truman serve no useful purpose in the article - and are wildly inaccurate.
President Harry Truman did not know Theodore Roosevelt - he was the Vice President of FRANKLIN Roosevelt. Whoever included the comments of Harry Truman may have been confused. President Truman was not an historian and his comments are wildly inaccurate - for example Theodore Roosevelt was not "right of center" - he was the best known pro larger government "progressive" politician of his time, considered (rightly or wrongly) in 1912 even more pro larger and more interventionist government than Woodrow Wilson. Nor was President Taft "ultra conservative" - for example he approved the creation of the Corporation Tax and he had more prosecutions of corporations for Anti Trust violations than Theodore Roosevelt did. As for the comment about liking special interests - that is just abusive. The section serves no good purpose and is wildly misleading for students - it needs to be removed. 2A02:C7C:E183:AC00:A4B5:E79C:4BFC:5E50 (talk) 16:26, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered=or|ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.
Please split the Testi 1995 reference into two different references with page numbers.
The "a reference" can be found on page 1516 and 1517 of Testi, though it does not support him being on a camping trip, merely that he was "in a stagecoach that was taking him on vacation." Further, the Thayer 1919, p. 20 reference does not seem to have any relevant information about Roosevelt's boxing experience. Pages 32 and 33 of his autobiography says that he was en-route to Moosehead lake when he was attacked.
So I'd suggest changing that sentence to "After being manhandled by two older boys on the way to Moosehead Lake, he found a boxing coach to teach him how to fight and strengthen his body.[1][2]"
As for the other Testi reference, I'd change the citation to [3], referring to quotes such as "Among foreign observers the perception of Roosevelt as a virile reformer was second only to the perception of him as a virile imperialist," though I couldn't find a perfect quote for him being the "exemplar of American masculinity" in Testi. GrapesRock (talk) 17:39, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This is awful. And it's depressing that it took so many people to make it so. There is little to no connection between the Progressivism of the early 20th century and the progressives" of 21st century America. That's pure propaganda. Can't trust Wikipedia on anything remotely controversial. You failed because you were founded in libertarianism, which is like being founded by L. Ron Hubbard. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 167.248.74.48 (talk) 19:00, 29 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Early widowerhood - suggest mention of 2 year hiatus
Within the section "First marriage and widowerhood", we have "After the deaths of his wife and mother, Roosevelt focused on his work, specifically by re-energizing a legislative investigation into corruption of the New York City government, which arose from a concurrent bill proposing that power be centralized in the mayor's office. For the rest of his life, he rarely spoke about his wife Alice and did not write about her in his autobiography."
Suggest 1. this widowerhood section is incomplete without reference to his sabbatical in the Badlands that began 5 months after his mother and Alice's deaths and 2. that we move this New York corruption language to Early Political Career: State Assemblyman section, with reference to this being his final term (session ended May 1884).
Suggest adding a brief reference to his 1884-1886 hiatus in the Dakota territory, and a link to "Cattle rancher in Dakota" (Theodore Roosevelt - Wikipedia) section. An important part of his widowerhood.
Suggested wording revision: "After the deaths of his wife and mother, Roosevelt finished out his term 1884 session with the New York State Assembly, and then spent the next two years trying his hand as a cattle rancher in the Dakota Territory (link to Theodore Roosevelt - Wikipedia). Pbculture (talk) 21:31, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Per a request in the edit summary, I'm posting notice here of my removal of the 'People with epilepsy' category. There is no mention in this article of Roosevelt having epilepsy. While some sources (mostly Facebook) say he was epileptic, I haven't seen any that would be considered reliable. See WP:RSP#Facebook. —ADavidB01:01, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
level-4 vital article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale.
Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Jamedeus (talk) 00:18, 24 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Done Now that I've got auto-confirmed perms, I've enacted this change GrapesRock (talk) 03:48, 5 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
