The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Keep. The overwhelming primary topic for this is the current target. The next most common use is an EP by Nakadia about which we have no information (the orphaned article contains no discography or similar), which would be worth a hatnote if there was some content to point to. After that come two different EPs, both by artists who don't have articles here. I'm not seeing any actual confusion with acid rain at all. Thryduulf (talk) 12:35, 4 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. The acid storm here is apparently an entity in the Transformers fictional universe. The target article mentions it a couple of times, without however defining it in any way, so readers who would like to find out what it is – the ostensible target audience of this redirect – are left none the wiser. The job should be left to the search engine, especially given the potential for confusion with acid rain. – Uanfala (talk)14:14, 4 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
KeepAcid Storm, which is sufficiently defined by the target list. More neutral on the uncapitalised variant, but I'm not convinced by the "confusion" argument. PC78 (talk) 20:33, 4 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Delete but not for the rationale of the nom. I'd say it's either an implausible search term (or keystrokes) or typo. Would we actually title an article based on a Unicode character?--Doug MehusT·C21:42, 19 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was delete all. This discussion was surprising to me in several ways. It's surprising to see a nomination with so many redirects that is contested but doesn't result in a WP:TRAINWRECK. It's surprising that while a few editors (besides the outright "keep" votes) singled out a few redirects that might be worth an exception, there wasn't consensus to "save" any of those. And it's surprising that there was strong consensus to delete even though most just have a single typo or misspelling (cf. WP:RTYPO). Nevertheless, XfDs are only bound by precedent inasmuch as participating editors want them to be. On procedural and policy grounds, the keep votes were valid, but there is no other realistic outcome of this discussion. --BDD (talk) 17:06, 22 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
These are all the 45 redirects that feature the mistyped "langauge". That's quite a plausible typo (I do it all the time), but this very plausibility paradoxically makes the redirects actually harmful. The trouble is, one or another of these 45 redirects will inevitably show up in the search results if you make this typo while looking for any of the 15,000 or so language articles that don't have the corresponding redirect, while the article you are actually looking for will not be there in the results. Say a reader makes this typo when looking for the Hattic language. They'll see a single article in the search results – Hittite language (and it's there because of the redirect Hittite langauge). If the reader is not aware of the fact that Hittite and Hattic are two very different languages, they might be misled into believing that it was in fact Hittite they were looking for. This potential for confusion is tempered somewhat by the "Did you mean ...." text displayed above the search results, but that can be easy to miss and it doesn't work in all cases (just try searching for "Javanese langauge" and see why there'll be no way to get to Javanese language from there). The solution is to either delete these 45 redirects (which is what I'm proposing), or to undertake to create and maintain similar redirects for each title with "language" in it (there are likely well over 20,000 of these, so that would be a tall order). A procedural note: this is a preliminary nomination. If it looks like consensus for deletion is likely to emerge, then I ask that the discussion be relisted for another week, so that I can notify the creators, tag the individual redirects, and scrutinise them individually (for incoming links, useful history, etc). – Uanfala (talk)02:10, 4 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Keep in general. I actually quite like the status quo, because it reflects the instances of when someone made the typo naturally and thought it useful enough to create the {{R from misspelling}} redirect. On the contrary, I would not support a bot creating all possible redirects with this typo. While "langauge" by itself may be plausible, the redirect for Obscure langauge would not be plausible, because that language is not widely searched enough. On the other hand, the English language, for example, is a widely searched language so English langauge should continue to be in place to redirect those searches. --Tavix(talk)03:25, 4 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Delete all Per WP:PANDORA. The existence of these redirects means that many, many more will inevitably be created if someone seeks to duplicate the typo here. Search function should be fine to send people to the right place instead.ZXCVBNM (TALK)10:14, 4 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Keep all per Tavix. Can we put this pandorra nonsense to bed please, redirects are created and discussed based on whether they are individually useful or harmful. Whether a hypothetical person may or may not create another redirect (which may or may not be useufl and/or harmful) based on it is completely irrelevant. At least some of these redirects, e.g. English langauge, are clearly very common typos and the redirects serve a very clear and useful purpose. Others may be less so, but without them being examined individually it is not possible to say, and the nominator should have undertaken to do this WP:BEFORE this nomination and there is also no reason why the creators and users of these redirects should not be notified of this discussion at this stage. Thryduulf (talk) 12:42, 4 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I advise renominating these individually; the scope is too broad to form one !vote for 45 redirects. While I agree that many of these redirects may not be plausible and should not be used to justify new, similarly implausible redirects, some (e.g. English langauge, as Thryduulf points out) definitely should be kept because of their comparitively higher usage. ComplexRational (talk) 21:08, 4 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Delete all except (maybe) YSL and English 'Yogyakarta Sign Langauge' was mine. I created it because Glottolog 3.3 had it misspelled that way. (I pointed it out to Harald and he's since fixed it, but we still link to it from Wikipedia:WikiProject Languages/Glottolog 3.3 language names.) As for the rest, I don't see any point to them. The search engine should be able to figure out a common misspelling like that. I would think 'rd from misspelling' should be for a misspelling that occurs in the literature. I've created several of these -- besides Glottolog, there are misspellings in Ethnologue's, Ruhlen's and V&V's lists of the world's languages, as well as on MultiTree at LingList, which should definitely be accommodated by us with rd's. But few of those involve "langauge". It's mostly the names themselves that have typos, because typos in obscure names can be hard to catch. I don't see any point to creating rd's if we just think our readers might make a typo in 'language' or 'people' while searching -- that should be caught by the search engine. — kwami (talk) 20:56, 5 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
But how many of these were intentional, and how many just typos themselves? 'Japanese' and 'Korean' were intentionally created to accommodate a common misspelling. But the following appear to have been accidentally created with a typo, and then moved or merged once that was noticed. The rd should've been tagged for deletion at the time. These are presumably unintentional and should be deleted:
Bakumpai, Aragonese, Cushitic, Turka, Kosli, Assamese-Bengali, Abujmaria, English langauge spelling reform [edit summary says it was unintentional], List of Marathi-langauge authors [ibid], List of Nepali-langauge authors [ibid], Mandi [ibid], Teso [ibid]
The following were created as rd's to a different name, and so are also likely to have been unintentional typos. E.g. for 'Hindi langauge', they likely intended to create 'Hindi language' as a rd to 'Hindi', or saw a red link and made a rd out of it, not noticing it was a typo:
Hindi, Ashkenazi, Native, Pakistani Langauges, Dart, Lemko, Natural langauge generator, Klamath-Modoc, Assessment of Basic Langauge and Learning Skills [also for diff in caps], Less commonly taught langauges [ibid], CLI [ibid]
Everything with capitalized "Langauge". E.g., we have Arabic Langauge, but not Arabic langauge. If the l.c. isn't worth rd, is there any point to the capitalized form?
Arabic, Mazandarani, Pakistani, CLI,
French (langauge) -- we don't put 'language' in parentheses, and readers aren't likely to search for it that way, so how is this the least bit useful? And we don't even have French langauge.
French, Pascal, Java, C, CS-4,
Others with two changes: 'Langauge codes' (typo + plural)
How many of the remainder are actually worthwhile? We've gotten along just fine for over a decade without Arabic or French, Spanish or Portuguese, Italian or German, Russian or Greek, so we really need Japanese and Korean, Malay, Thai and Chinese? Do we think people looking up Asian languages are more likely to make typos than people looking up European languages? Maybe keep English just because we're WP-en. — kwami (talk) 21:44, 5 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Delete all per nom, and I suggest renominating in smaller groups instead of relisting the discussion. I would differentiate between at least a few distinct types/formats. The usefulness of Foo langauge → FooorFoo language redirects is debatable, but I lean toward deletion per WP:UNHELPFUL, as unnecessary (redirects are not intended to deprecate the Search function), and because they actually interfere with searching for the right article. Foo (langauge) → Foo, Foo language, or Foo (language) redirects should all be deleted per WP:RDAB. Foo langauge → BarorBar language should be deleted as implausible. And, finally, longer titles should be deleted given the usefulness of a redirect that accounts for one possible error decreases with the length of the title (e.g., List of Foo-langauge authors. -- Black Falcon(talk)05:46, 6 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Since the typo's been fixed on Glottolog, it's unlikely anyone would try to find 'Yogyakarta Sign Langauge' anymore, so I wouldn't object if it were deleted as well. — kwami (talk) 03:14, 8 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
AngusWOOF, I've had a look at the stats for the redirects that were deliberately created as typos (not that many of them), and the most viewed one was English langauge (310 last year), followed by Thai langauge (58); the rest were an order of magnitude smaller. I haven't checked all yet. – Uanfala (talk) 01:04, 12 November 2019 (UTC) Oh look, Arabic Langauge received close to 1,800 views last year, that's highly unusual! – Uanfala (talk)01:08, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, Uanfala, Keep some English, Arabic, and Thai ones should be keepers. The others where they are used in a long phrase that isn't associated with a specific language should be removed. AngusWOOF (bark • sniff) 03:48, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Relisting comment: Several of the redirects in this discussion were not tagged until today.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Steel1943 (talk) 18:25, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Keep all per WP:RKEEP 2 and 5. I echo what Tavix says above, but want to add my own rationale for keeping these. This is perhaps the single most common misspelling of "language"; I make it constantly and even see it in professional writing. The odds that a reader makes this typo is high making it an incredibly useful search term (see {{R from typo}}) and an aid for accidental linking. It makes duplicate articles less likely; this is a hard mistake to notice (as others above have said) and an editor may see the redlink and may not realize it's an error, instead they think it's a nonexistent article and create a stub that takes more time to resolve. These don't deprecate the search function, we know exactly where a reader who types this wants to be taken; showing them a list of articles they obviously didn't want is pointless at best and hostile design at worst. The status quo is fine. (edit conflict) Wug·a·po·des 19:24, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Wugapodes, showing readers a list of articles they obviously didn't want is precisely what the status quo results in, that was the whole point of the nomination! Say you're searching for the Khowar language; if you make this typo, the search results will contain one article: Languages of Pakistan: that's because Pakistani langauge redirects there and the article mentions Khowar. What is significant is that the article actually sought – Khowar language – is not in the results. On the other hand, if the redirect Pakistani langauge is deleted, then the search results will look a lot different: because there's no article that has both the word "Khowar" and the misspelt "langauge" in its contents or among its redirects, the search engine will auto-correct straight away and return the same results as if the search was for the correctly typed phrase, with the desired article Khowar language right at the top (you can see an example from a similar search: [1]). in sum, these redirects achieve the saving of a single click for those readers who make the typo when seaching for these 45 articles, while returning completely the wrong results for readers who make the typo while searching for probably several thousand other articles. – Uanfala (talk)01:04, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
You've chosen one out of dozens where the redirect and target mismatch. This is not the case for:
Less commonly taught langauges → Less Commonly Taught Languages
So I don't find your counter example particularly compelling. If that were the only one up for deletion, I would agree, but the literal bulk (I removed less than 10 entries) of your nomination is cases where it is completely unambiguous what is being referred to. It's hostile design to know exactly where readers want to be taken and then intentionally not take them there. It's not even clear that the results for "Khowar langauge" are because of the redirect; go look at the search results for "Hattic langauge" which you bring up in the original nomination. The first result is Hattic language despite there being no such redirect. Two examples of "making searches harder" have been given and one isn't even correct. We have over 36,000 redirects from misspellings including a number following "cheif" conventions after a 2016 RfD found no consensus to delete. I've yet to see any convincing deletion rationale that justifies not taking readers where we know they want to go. Wug·a·po·des 06:16, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I don't why I'm having such a hard time getting you to grasp the point of this nomination, Wugapodes. Let me try again. Let's take Hindi langauge, it redirects to Hindi. If you search for "Hindi langauge" it will take you straight where you want, that's right. But let's see what happens if you search for say "Kumaoni langauge". In the search results there's only one article: Hindi, that's because it mentions Kumaoni and because it's the target of a redirect with "langauge" (that's all that matters, it's irrelevant how similar or different the title of the redirect is to the article title). You'll get the same unhelpful result if you make the typo when searching for any of the 170 or so other languages that are mentioned (in the text or in the navboxes) of Hindi. Just try any. As for Hattic, the redirect Hittite langauge was recently taggged for RfD, so it doesn't affect the search results; the results you've seen is precisely what you'll get if the redirect is deleted. Now I've removed the rfd tag, so if you click on your own "Hattic" link above, you'll see what I've been describing. Now, I'm not advocating against redirects from misspellings, in fact I create such redirects all the time. But for phrases like "X language" it makese sense to create such redirects for misspelling of X (lesser-known term so more likely to be misspelt and less likely to be recognised by the search engine), rather than for the generic word "langauge" (already handled fine by the search engine, the redirect would obstruct related search results). – Uanfala (talk)13:17, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
If these are problems that are occuring in practice rather than the abstract, then make the redirect. If you make redirects from misspellings all the time, I don't understand why you're so opposed to doing so in this case. We do not have a limit on the number of redirects we're allowed to have, and as I continue to say, if we know exactly where a reader wants to be taken, we should take them there. As other have said discussing these topics in the abstract is pointless because the options are either take readers where they clearly want to go or don't take readers where they clearly want to go. You're suggesting we bulk delete useful redirects because we don't have enough redirects which makes no sense. There are lots of useful redirects that we should have that we don't, that doesn't make other redirects less useful. If you are having an actual problem, create the redirect; that's why many of these exist in the first place and why usefulness is listed at WP:RKEEP but "opening pandora's box" is not at WP:RDEL. If you're concerned about pandora's box this is a worse precedent to set because editors will keep creating redirects from misspellings and we'll keep sending them to RfD. See the section above PANDORA, Wikipedia:Redirects are costly#Sending redirects to RFD is costly: "You can reduce this burden by...not sending redirects to RFD, unless there is a serious problem that can't be solved any other way (e.g., WP:BLP violations). This includes not listing redirects for deletion that you think are "unnecessary", or which could be solved through other methods". There's a clear alternative solution here: create the redirects you need rather than putting us in the situation of playing perpetual whackamole because people will keep creating redirects from misspellings that they find useful. Wug·a·po·des 17:06, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
These redirects create a problem for searches, and it's a lot easier to solve this problem by deleting these 45 redirects than by creating (and looking after!) the several tens of thousands redirects for each title with "language". – Uanfala (talk)02:50, 13 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Delete all It is not possible to have redirects for all combinations of common typos. The search feature should handle this, and if there are corner cases where it does not work well at the moment, they should be pointed out for eventual improvement by developers. The nom points out a genuine problem, and Fiamh points out that a red link in an article due to a typo is better than an auto-correct redirect. Johnuniq (talk) 23:39, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The last two have already been added, while the first one (Langauge and langauge is the same page – the first letter of article titles is not case-sensitive), is probably the subject of another RfD as the deletion rationale doens't quite apply here. I personally think it's heplful. – Uanfala (talk)01:04, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that Langauge is a useful redirect. The plausibility of a redirect decreases with length—i.e., all else being equal, a single-world title with a misspelling is more likely to be searched than a 2-word, 3-word, or other multi-word title containing the same mispelling. -- Black Falcon(talk)02:24, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Delete all except English langauge... that one is likely to be useful as a mispelling to help people find what they want.Jason Quinn (talk) 05:19, 12 November 2019 (UTC) (Decided keeping the English one would not be worthwhile because our search engine works based on prefixes of article titles. Struck. Delete all. Jason Quinn (talk) 12:22, 12 November 2019 (UTC))[reply]
As of yesterday, all of the redirects (except Hindi langauge and Hittite language, as explained above) have been rfd-tagged (thanks to Steel1943 for helping out). I've grouped the redirects above into groups: 19 were created intentionally with the typo, the rest were created in error. Pinging Tavix (whose comment was partly predicated on all the redirects having been created on purpose) and ComplexRational (who recommended breaking down the nomination into groups). I've checked the redirects from duplicate articles: these would have all been A10-eligible at the time of creation and there's nothing in their history worth preserving. Among the redirects from moves the ones that have been the article's title for the longest are List of Marathi-langauge authors (3 weeks in 2013), CS-4 (programming langauge) (a month in 2016) and List of Nepali-langauge authors (2 months in 2015). I don't think that's recent or long enough to warrant keeping. – Uanfala (talk)02:40, 13 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you, Uanfala, it is a lot easier to read through and assess each redirect now. That said, weak keepHindi langauge, English langauge, and Chinese langauge as those seem to be more commonly used. Pageviews are considerably fewer for most of the others, and this particular typo is less plausible when the redirect is longer (because there are many other equally plausible typos that are similarly unhelpful). Those created in error have since been fixed, so there's no need to keep them around if they would have been eligible for A10 or R3. Hence, delete all the rest as unhelpful; the typo is not heavily searched in more obscure cases, and more clutter is created that makes searching more difficult. I'd even be fine deleting those three I mentioned, but their pageviews might justify keeping them. ComplexRational (talk) 23:20, 13 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, yes, these two articles don't get in way as much as the others. But they will still crop up in the search results for any of the few languages mentioned in each (though the potential for misleading readers is small as most of those languages are pretty big and no-one will assume that we don't have an article on, say, German). I'm more concerned about the way Langauge acquisition can obstruct searches for the occasional general linguistic concept, like Language death. – Uanfala (talk)14:10, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Delete all we don't need every possible typo as a redirect for articles. Just as redirects are cheap, they're just as easy to be re-created. Also, if the nom is the author of the redirects, speedy delete applies. Doug MehusT·C15:06, 19 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
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The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
There is no mention of "The Blip" at the current target; even if it is the actual name of a plot point of the film, a reader following this redirect will find no useful information. I propose retargeting to the disambiguation page Blip, due to the low utility of the current target and the high possibility that a reader may be looking for some other meaning of this phrase. signed, Rosguilltalk01:08, 4 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
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The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
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The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
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The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Retarget Political scientist to Political science. This seems more logical as not everyone will be looking for a list that hardly explains the subject. Geolodus (talk) 07:43, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
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It makes no sense to redirect this very general title to this specific club's list of records and stats. I can't think of a suitable retarget - the phrase seems too broad to me - but I'm happy to withdraw if someone who's had more coffee than me comes up with something. ♠PMC♠ (talk)01:13, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I thought of that, but "club" doesn't necessarily mean football, or even a sports club, so I wasn't sure if that was suitable. ♠PMC♠ (talk)17:18, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
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From the second paragraph of the Lead: "It is often referred to as The Christian Church, The Disciples of Christ', The Disciples, or the D.O.C." I can see how "Disciples of Christ church" would be a good redirect for that. ~Awilley (talk)01:18, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
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Relisted, see Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2019 November 21#Television app
