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The victims section makes no mention of genocide, but other editors insist that it remains WP:SYNTH despite the violation because good information is lost. In Wikipedia:Edit warning it is written: Reverting to enforce certain overriding policies is not considered edit warning. I don't know if it applies here. Apart from that, this content that violates WP:SYNTH should stay? Parham wiki (talk) 17:45, 25 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Multiple news sources, academic journal articles, and NGO websites have now been added as references that explicitly detail death tolls since the beginning of the 2023 Israel-Hamas War while also explicitly making reference to it being or potentially being a genocide. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 18:55, 25 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I support objectivity, and it is my firm commitment that Wikipedia should display differing viewpoints as objectively as possible for controversial topics, particularly those of ethnic, religions and political natures. I neutrally displayed opposing viewpoints that were historically held by some on controversial topics regarding Russia, Ukraine and Belarus.
I give multiple citations and Manya erases them. She asks for proof that the citations support my statements, I give it, and then she says that the citations do not support some other point. She is moving the goalposts. This conduct is unbecoming of a Wikipedia editor.
Thusfar I have given her ample opportunity to pinpoint what is missing in my contributions. She cannot do it but persists in deleting cited, verified content.
These topics are sensitive and particular nationalists often try to cover up historical opposing viewpoints or facts that are incongruous with their narratives.
The main issue I see is the content you've added content without any sources, if someone challenges your additions you are required to supply sourcing to a reliable source (see WP:BURDEN). You also seem to have tried to use Wikipedia as one of those sources but Wikipedia is never a reliable source (see WP:CIRCULAR). There has also to be a lot of commenting on others editors and not content, editors should not comment on other editors or the possible motivations. Finally if there is disagreement over whether a sources is reliable or not I suggest asking at the reliable sources noticeboard. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested«@» °∆t° 19:08, 2 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I am having a WP:OR dispute with @NadVolum:. They believe that the two separate estimates of Palestinian children casualties have different classifications as to whether children are defined as a person below 18 or 14 years old. They claim that this is acceptable to add because it is WP:CALC. However, there is no reference for this claim at all. Related discussion: Template talk:2023 Israel–Hamas war infobox#Template talk:2023 Israel–Hamas war infobox
I said I would revert if I couldn't find a reference quickly and then found one almost immediatly but then they come here wasting my time because they think they might use one age for the children killed but refer to a second age and their proportion in Gaza just a little further down the same page. Sheesh. NadVolum (talk) 21:47, 2 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Post Office scandal
Some more input at Talk:British_Post_Office_scandal#'Individual_cases'? would be helpful. We are currently split 3 versus 3. The article, for a long time, had a section about individual cases affected by the scandal. This was removed based on an argument that talking about individual cases when over 700 individuals were affected constitutes WP:SYNTH. That seems to me to be a misapplication of the policy, but I thought I would seek the views of people here with more expertise! Bondegezou (talk) 11:06, 5 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This man is lying, I have consistently been adding information backed by verified sources, while he has been adding lies and unverified facts which anyone well versed on East African history knows are lies and taken the time to continue lying and deleting the facts I have put up and verified MyrhaanWarrior (talk) 16:18, 7 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Maghrebin Deleting verified information and making false edits
@Maghrebin Has been deleting my wiki edits which have been verified by multiple books and first hand authors and has been pushng false information on wiki pages backed by no details which are blatant lies anyone with an ounce knowledge of East African history would know, one example is his ethno nationalist tendencies, claiming his recently created ethnic group in the early 1800's had taken part in the wars of another ethnic group they are confused for which is over 5,000 years old. I have taken the time to explain on his talk page writing paragraphs with evidences and he has refused to engage or even bother refuting me, responding by giving me false warnings
And even while I did verify my information he had deleted everything repeatedly making multiple edits MyrhaanWarrior (talk) 16:21, 7 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This noticeboard is about possible violations of the original research policy stay on topic, for example where does reference #31 state "Somali" or "Harla" in the Ethiopian-Adal war article which you based your edit off of? [10]. The reponse you've given me on the article talk page, indicates you wont accept academic references because they dont align with your original research viewpoint.[11]Magherbin (talk) 08:11, 8 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
We already spoke about this and I provided evidence Marehan fought the hardest and Hirabu was the Emir of all Somalis, yet you decided to delete all my edits and sources even while I provided images from the book and the exact page number which described exactly what I stated
If you want to use this logic, then where were Hararis mentioned? The ethnic group didn't even exist as I previously, they speak a Semitic language and are a mix of Orromo, Habesha, Harrala and Somali, Harrala is what you're trying to claim, an ancient proto Somali Cushitic group
According to all historians before the 1800's the region was not Harari but purely Somali, thus the name Barbaria
Aside from your original research theory, I suggest reading the cited content especially p.66 [12] which states Hararis were involved in the war. You simply changed the text to state "Somali" and "Harla", the references makes no mention of either. Also not sure which "all historians" state the region was not Harari until the 1800s, the state existed long before that see a source by Oxford p.486 "the Harari imanate within the kingdom of Adal was nearly destroyed by persistent Galla raids. A member of Gran's family transferred the seat of his Sultanate from Harar to the fertile valley of Awsa and began what Trimmingham has described 'the miserable history of the Imanate of Aussa'. The new Sultanate did notescape Somali raids and was overrun by 'nomadic Afar' near the end of the seventeenth century." [13]. Another historian is Richard Pankhurst who discusses the defeat of Emperor Gelawdewos in the 1500s by the Harari cavalry. His work is titled "The Ethiopian Borderlands: Essays in Regional History from Ancient Times to the End of the 18th Century" on p.246 [14] it states "Galawdewos was hit by a bullet, but continued to fight until surrounded by a score of Harari cavalry". Magherbin (talk) 21:26, 9 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Editors are disrupting the progression of the article with the pretence of some idea of policy without following the necessary policy which they are using to stop the changes that I recently made, by enforcing the notion that consesus is necessary if the sources don't have the information in for the false information or non present in the sources information to have been added to the article in the first place.
This is already being discussed at at the fringe theories noticeboard and has been for a week. Simpul skitsofreeneea has today also taken it here as well as to ANI. What's with the forum shopping, Simpul skitsofreeneea? Spreading the issue thinly over an increasing number of noticeboards won't result in more or better discussion, on the contrary. It wastes everybody's time. Bishonen | tålk18:25, 10 January 2024 (UTC).[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Do you see this as rephrasing in own words or is this own analysis?
I think this is extrapolating and making inference rather than directly supported. I'd like to get additional perspectives. The prose in question is The Van Ryper ship models proved cost-effective for the government, as they helped in verfiying the accuracy of design, arrangements of naval deck fixtures, and alignment of various machinery components for larger ship constructions, based on source text of It is impossible to estimate the money saved in the construction of large ships by use of these ship models to check accuracy of design, arrangements of deck furniture and the lead of various parts of machinery. with regard to this edit from the source https://www.newspapers.com/article/the-ithaca-journal-van-ryper-ship-models/138720698/ The source discusses two model makers and I do not see it discussing effectiveness in a way that directly demonstrates the cost effectiveness of Van Riper models. 00:21, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
It does seem like the prose in question is making an inference by stating that the ship models 'proved' to be 'cost-effective' when the original source is stating that "it is impossible to estimate." To me, those two things don't appear to be the one and same, in that, impossible to estimate doesn't equate to proving that something is cost effective. The original sentence is saying money was saved from the ship models but it would also need to say or have similar wording to say that it was also cost effective. Eucalyptusmint (talk) 03:13, 19 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Using comic books to overrule secondary sources
A user at Talk:Thor (Marvel Comics)#Misleading content is insisting that content from reliable secondary sources should be deleted because it contradicts his own understanding after reading comic books featuring the character. I asked him to make a post here to settle the dispute, but he instead went to seek support at WP:WikiProject Comics. He seems to be making this argument because he believes I'm trying to emasculate the character by removing the laundry list of character feats cited to comic books (as he says here and here). Thebiguglyalien (talk) 22:57, 19 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This is an inevitable result of MOS:PLOTSOURCE and WP:PLOTCITE, which I feel badly need revisiting, since they unacceptably attempt to contradict WP:V. The simple answer is that as core policy, WP:V (and WP:NOR, but V is necessary in this case because editors will simply claim their plot summary isn't OR and without the sourcing requirement this can't be resolved) override WP:PLOTCITE; once you've challenged any text in an article, including a plot summary, an in-line citation must be produced for it, per WP:V's statement that All quotations, and any material whose verifiability has been challenged or is likely to be challenged, must include an inline citation to a reliable source that directly supports the material. Note that the direct and unequivocal contradiction between the two polices; obviously, as core policy, V cannot be overridden (certainly not by the mere manual of style) and always takes precedence, meaning PLOTCITE only applies as long as the summary isn't challenged (or likely to be challenged, in the case of summaries that make obviously controversial interpretations of the text.) At best, all PLOTCITE accomplishes is lightly discouraging editors from going around challenging every single plot summary for the sake of doing so, but it can't prevent anyone from challenging the text in any specific instance or remove the requirement for an in-line citation once that challenge occurs. --Aquillion (talk) 23:09, 19 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I may have been overly suspicious, given your editing history here in Wikipedia, but my autistic mind is nearly unable to filter my thoughts or to play insincere manipulation games, and my social skills and emotional intelligence are very low, and I also have very high pattern-recognition, so I unfortunately tend to say exactly what I think without subterfuge.
It is not about emasculation, but rather about that the cited secondary sources list an extremely misleading specific statistic for the character without any explanation regarding how they arrived at this conclusion, which completely contradict virtually all stories featuring the character, and even makes Thor seem enormously weaker than Spider-Man, who has lifted tens of thousands of tons on occasion, and that after Thebiguglyalien removed enormous amounts of useful content for the article, it also seems to draw ties from the character to Nazism and Viking raiders, which is also extremely misleading and offensive for anybody remotely familiar with the character.
Thebiguglyalien also stated himself that the comic books are inconsistent, which is true, but by following that argument to its conclusion, no specific statistics should be included at all in the article, yet he adamantly and completely inflexibly refuses to budge an inch to remove even that particular brief phrase, even though I have otherwise begrudgingly accepted that he suddenly decided to destroy lots of work that I had put into the page. David A (talk) 23:19, 19 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I will unfortunately not be able to actively participate here, as I am trying to juggle work duties and being on vacation at the same time currently. My apologies.
(Coming from WT:COMICS) It's great to see the Wizard issues on archive.org being used in articles! That issue's language would support "over 100 tons" as well. Wikipedia's policies are against analysis of primary sources in the body text. If you'd like a list of how articles handle factually incorrect secondary sources check out Wikipedia:When sources are wrong. I don't see anything about Thor being a Nazi. Rjjiii (ii) (talk) 09:09, 21 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Well, the old "100 tons" claim originated as a very symbolic, rather than remotely literal, scale in the old 1980s Marvel Comics handbook, and it is constantly contradicted to extreme degrees by the actual stories that this character appears within, sometimes, as you can see by clicking here, even to a literally infinite degree, so I find it ridiculously misleading to suddenly insert such a blatantly absurd claim into the text. David A (talk) 20:58, 21 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
FWIW, I'm not convinced that the Marvel handbook is a secondary source, to begin with. This sounds like a dispute regarding conflicting primary sources. pburka (talk) 22:03, 21 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not convinced it's secondary. The handbook is itself a Marvel comic book, and from what I can tell contains quite a bit of original content. Either way, it's certainly not independent and probably not reliable. It would be far better to find a reliable, independent secondary source rather than argue about which comic books are authoritative. pburka (talk) 23:54, 21 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Any source that mentions "100 tons" is per definition citing the Marvel Comics "handbook", which in turn just made up a random symbolic number without any basis in the feats that Thor has actually performed within the stories themselves. David A (talk) 01:32, 22 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
What definition? For better or worse, we trust independent, secondary sources, and it's not our role as editors to second guess their research. If you do believe it's wrong, find a better secondary source. pburka (talk) 04:32, 22 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The 100 tons value was first mentioned in the 1980s Marvel Comics handbook, and very badly informed people, who have likely never actually read stories featuring these characters, have occasionally cited the number ever since. The only other alternative would be that they made it up out of thin air, and to state the blatantly obvious, secondary sources are not automatically correct, no matter how absurd their claims. How exactly do you explain all of the listed and referenced feats that I linked to above being performed by a character that can supposedly only lift a truck? David A (talk) 16:22, 22 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You're probably right, but this is original research. You need to find a reliable secondary source that supports your position. pburka (talk) 17:02, 23 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
