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Contents

   



(Top)
 


1 Re:What's normal ?  
2 comments  




2 wp:vpa ?  
1 comment  




3 Dawoodabro  
2 comments  




4 WT:NOTE  
1 comment  




5 WP:DEL and WP:N  
2 comments  




6 In the future  
3 comments  




7 The ANI thread  
1 comment  




8 Articles you might like to edit, from SuggestBot  
1 comment  




9 Signpost updated for May 2nd and 9th, 2008.  
1 comment  




10 New Thought article  
3 comments  




11 Signpost updated for May 12th, 2008.  
1 comment  




12 An open letter to Hrafn,  
12 comments  


12.1  An equally open response to Low Sea  



12.1.1  Reply to 1 (+)  





12.1.2  Reply to 2  





12.1.3  Reply to 3  





12.1.4  Reply to 4 (+)  





12.1.5  Reply to 5  





12.1.6  Reply to 6  





12.1.7  Reply to 7  





12.1.8  Misc replies  







12.2  An open final response to Low Sea  







13 Smile  
1 comment  




14 Signpost updated for May 19th and 26th, 2008.  
1 comment  




15 Signpost updated for June 2, 2008.  
1 comment  




16 Signpost updated for June 9, 2008.  
1 comment  




17 Signpost updated for June 23 and 26, 2008.  
1 comment  




18 WPPageHistStat  
1 comment  




19 Spirituality category changes  
2 comments  




20 Signpost updated for June 30, 2008.  
1 comment  




21 Signpost updated for July 7, 2008.  
1 comment  




22 Bio edit  
1 comment  




23 Signpost updated for July 14 and 21, 2008.  
1 comment  




24 Signpost updated for July 28, August 9, 11 and 18, 2008.  
2 comments  




25 Please take a look  
1 comment  




26 Signpost updated for August 25 and September 8, 2008.  
1 comment  




27 Signpost updated for September 15, 2008.  
1 comment  




28 MTBE bot  





29 Please provide sources  
1 comment  




30 Signpost updated for November 17, 2008 and before.  
1 comment  




31 Resource_Request#Dr._Joseph_Murphy  
1 comment  




32 Signpost updated for November 24, 2008 through January 3, 2009  
1 comment  




33 Wikipedia Signpost, January 10, 2009  
1 comment  




34 Wikipedia Signpost, January 17, 2009  
2 comments  




35 Wikipedia Signpost, January 24, 2009  
1 comment  




36 Wikipedia Signpost, January 31, 2009  
2 comments  




37 Wikipedia Signpost, February 8, 2009  
2 comments  




38 Wikipedia Signpost  February 16, 2009  
1 comment  




39 Wikipedia Signpost  February 23, 2009  
1 comment  




40 Wikipedia Signpost  2 March 2009  
1 comment  




41 Wikipedia Signpost  9 March 2009  
1 comment  




42 Wikipedia Signpost  16 March 2009  





43 Wikipedia Signpost: 23 March 2009  
1 comment  




44 Wikipedia Signpost: 30 March 2009  
1 comment  




45 Wikipedia Signpost: 6 April 2009  
1 comment  




46 Wikipedia Signpost: 13 April 2009  
1 comment  




47 Wikipedia Signpost: 20 April 2009  
1 comment  




48 Wikipedia Signpost: 27 April 2009  
1 comment  




49 Wikipedia Signpost: 11 May 2009  
1 comment  




50 Wikipedia Signpost: 18 May 2009  
1 comment  




51 Wikipedia Signpost: 25 May 2009  
1 comment  




52 Wikipedia Signpost: 1 June 2009  
1 comment  




53 Wikipedia Signpost: 15 June 2009  
1 comment  




54 Wikipedia Signpost: 22 June 2009  
1 comment  




55 Wikipedia Signpost: 29 June 2009  
1 comment  




56 Wikipedia Signpost: 6 July 2009  
1 comment  




57 Wikipedia Signpost: 27 July 2009  
1 comment  




58 Wikipedia Signpost: 3 August 2009  
1 comment  




59 Wikipedia Signpost: 10 August 2009  
1 comment  




60 Wikipedia Signpost: 17 August 2009  
1 comment  




61 Wikipedia Signpost: 24 August 2009  
1 comment  




62 The Wikipedia Signpost: 21 September 2009  
1 comment  




63 The Wikipedia Signpost: 28 September 2009  
1 comment  




64 The Wikipedia Signpost: 5 October 2009  
1 comment  




65 The Wikipedia Signpost: 12 October 2009  
1 comment  




66 The Wikipedia Signpost: 19 October 2009  
1 comment  




67 The Wikipedia Signpost: 26 October 2009  
1 comment  




68 The Wikipedia Signpost: 2 November 2009  
1 comment  




69 The Wikipedia Signpost: 9 November 2009  
1 comment  




70 The Wikipedia Signpost: 16 November 2009  
1 comment  




71 The Wikipedia Signpost: 23 November 2009  
1 comment  




72 The Wikipedia Signpost: 30 November 2009  
1 comment  




73 The Wikipedia Signpost: 7 December 2009  
1 comment  




74 The Wikipedia Signpost: 14 December 2009  
1 comment  




75 The Wikipedia Signpost: 21 December 2009  
1 comment  




76 The Wikipedia Signpost: 28 December 2009  
1 comment  




77 The Wikipedia Signpost: 1 January 2010  
1 comment  




78 The Wikipedia Signpost: 11 January 2010  
1 comment  




79 The Wikipedia Signpost: 18 January 2010  
1 comment  




80 The Wikipedia Signpost: 25 January 2010  
1 comment  




81 The Wikipedia Signpost: 1 February 2010  
1 comment  




82 The Wikipedia Signpost: 8 February 2010  
1 comment  




83 The Wikipedia Signpost: 15 February 2010  
1 comment  




84 The Wikipedia Signpost: 22 February 2010  
1 comment  




85 The Wikipedia Signpost: 1 March 2010  
1 comment  




86 The Wikipedia Signpost: 8 March 2010  
1 comment  




87 The Wikipedia Signpost: 15 March 2010  
1 comment  




88 The Wikipedia Signpost: 22 March 2010  
1 comment  




89 The Wikipedia Signpost: 29 March 2010  
1 comment  




90 The Wikipedia Signpost: 5 April 2010  
1 comment  




91 The Wikipedia Signpost: 12 April 2010  
1 comment  




92 The Wikipedia Signpost: 19 April 2010  
1 comment  




93 The Wikipedia Signpost: 26 April 2010  
1 comment  




94 The Wikipedia Signpost: 3 May 2010  
1 comment  




95 The Wikipedia Signpost: 10 May 2010  
1 comment  




96 The Wikipedia Signpost: 17 May 2010  
1 comment  




97 The Wikipedia Signpost: 24 May 2010  
1 comment  




98 The Wikipedia Signpost: 31 May 2010  
1 comment  




99 The Wikipedia Signpost: 7 June 2010  
1 comment  




100  The Wikipedia Signpost: 14 June 2010  
1 comment  




101  The Wikipedia Signpost: 21 June 2010  
1 comment  




102  The Wikipedia Signpost: 28 June 2010  
1 comment  




103  The Wikipedia Signpost: 5 July 2010  
1 comment  




104  The Wikipedia Signpost: 12 July 2010  
1 comment  




105  The Wikipedia Signpost: 19 July 2010  
1 comment  




106  The Wikipedia Signpost: 26 July 2010  
1 comment  




107  The Wikipedia Signpost: 2 August 2010  
1 comment  




108  The Wikipedia Signpost: 9 August 2010  
1 comment  




109  The Signpost: 16 August 2010  
1 comment  




110  The Signpost: 23 August 2010  
1 comment  




111  The Signpost: 30 August 2010  
1 comment  




112  The Signpost: 6 September 2010  
1 comment  




113  The Signpost: 13 September 2010  
1 comment  




114  The Signpost: 20 September 2010  
1 comment  




115  The Signpost: 27 September 2010  
1 comment  




116  The Signpost: 4 October 2010  
1 comment  




117  The Signpost: 11 October 2010  
1 comment  




118  The Signpost: 18 October 2010  
1 comment  




119  The Signpost: 25 October 2010  
1 comment  




120  The Signpost: 1 November 2010  
1 comment  




121  The Signpost: 8 November 2010  
1 comment  




122  The Signpost: 15 November 2010  
1 comment  




123  The Signpost: 22 November 2010  
1 comment  




124  The Signpost: 29 November 2010  
1 comment  




125  The Signpost: 6 December 2010  
1 comment  




126  The Signpost: 13 December 2010  
1 comment  




127  The Signpost: 20 December 2010  
1 comment  




128  The Signpost: 27 December 2010  
1 comment  




129  The Signpost: 3 January 2011  
1 comment  




130  The Signpost: 10 January 2011  
1 comment  




131  The Signpost: 17 January 2011  
1 comment  




132  The Signpost: 24 January 2011  
1 comment  




133  The Signpost: 31 January 2011  
1 comment  




134  The Signpost: 7 February 2011  
1 comment  




135  The Signpost: 14 February 2011  
1 comment  




136  The Signpost: 21 February 2011  
1 comment  




137  The Signpost: 28 February 2011  
1 comment  




138  The Signpost: 7 March 2011  
1 comment  




139  Notification: changes to "Mark my edits as minor by default" preference  
1 comment  




140  The Signpost: 14 March 2011  
1 comment  




141  The Signpost: 21 March 2011  
1 comment  




142  The Signpost: 28 March 2011  
1 comment  




143  The Signpost: 4 April 2011  
1 comment  




144  The Signpost: 11 April 2011  
1 comment  




145  The Signpost: 18 April 2011  
1 comment  




146  The Signpost: 25 April 2011  
1 comment  




147  The Signpost: 2 May 2011  
1 comment  




148  The Signpost: 9 May 2011  
1 comment  




149  The Signpost: 16 May 2011  
1 comment  




150  The Signpost: 23 May 2011  
1 comment  




151  The Signpost: 30 May 2011  
1 comment  




152  The Signpost: 6 June 2011  
1 comment  




153  The Signpost: 13 June 2011  
1 comment  




154  The Signpost: 20 June 2011  
1 comment  




155  The Signpost: 27 June 2011  
1 comment  




156  The Signpost: 4 July 2011  
1 comment  




157  The Signpost: 11 July 2011  
1 comment  




158  The Signpost: 18 July 2011  
1 comment  




159  The Signpost: 25 July 2011  
1 comment  




160  The Signpost: 01 August 2011  
1 comment  




161  The Signpost: 08 August 2011  
1 comment  




162  The Signpost: 15 August 2011  
1 comment  




163  The Signpost: 22 August 2011  
1 comment  




164  The Signpost: 29 August 2011  
1 comment  




165  The Signpost: 05 September 2011  
1 comment  




166  The Signpost: 12 September 2011  
1 comment  




167  The Signpost: 19 September 2011  
1 comment  




168  The Signpost: 26 September 2011  
1 comment  




169  The Signpost: 3 October 2011  
1 comment  




170  The Signpost: 10 October 2011  
1 comment  




171  The Signpost: 17 October 2011  
1 comment  




172  The Signpost: 24 October 2011  
1 comment  




173  The Signpost: 31 October 2011  
1 comment  




174  The Signpost: 7 November2011  
1 comment  




175  The Signpost: 14 November 2011  
1 comment  




176  The Signpost: 21 November 2011  
1 comment  




177  The Signpost: 28 November 2011  
1 comment  




178  The Signpost: 05 December 2011  
1 comment  




179  The Signpost: 12 December 2011  
1 comment  




180  The Signpost: 19 December 2011  
1 comment  




181  The Signpost: 26 December 2011  
1 comment  




182  The Signpost: 02 January 2012  
1 comment  




183  The Signpost: 09 January 2012  
1 comment  




184  The Signpost: 16 January 2012  
1 comment  




185  The Signpost: 23 January 2012  
1 comment  




186  The Signpost: 30 January 2012  
1 comment  




187  The Signpost: 06 February 2012  
1 comment  




188  The Signpost: 13 February 2012  
1 comment  




189  The Signpost: 20 February 2012  
1 comment  




190  The Signpost: 27 February 2012  
1 comment  




191  The Signpost: 05 March 2012  
1 comment  




192  The Signpost: 12 March 2012  
1 comment  




193  The Signpost: 19 March 2012  
1 comment  




194  The Signpost: 26 March 2012  
1 comment  




195  The Signpost: 02 April 2012  
1 comment  




196  The Signpost: 09 April 2012  
1 comment  




197  The Signpost: 16 April 2012  
1 comment  




198  The Signpost: 23 April 2012  
1 comment  




199  The Signpost: 30 April 2012  
1 comment  




200  The Signpost: 07 May 2012  
1 comment  




201  The Signpost: 14 May 2012  
1 comment  




202  The Signpost: 21 May 2012  
1 comment  




203  The Signpost: 28 May 2012  
1 comment  




204  The Signpost: 04 June 2012  
1 comment  




205  The Signpost: 11 June 2012  
1 comment  




206  The Signpost: 18 June 2012  
1 comment  




207  The Signpost: 25 June 2012  
1 comment  




208  The Signpost: 02 July 2012  
1 comment  




209  The Signpost: 09 July 2012  
1 comment  




210  The Signpost: 16 July 2012  
1 comment  




211  The Signpost: 23 July 2012  
1 comment  




212  The Signpost: 30 July 2012  
1 comment  




213  The Signpost: 06 August 2012  
1 comment  




214  The Signpost: 13 August 2012  
1 comment  




215  The Signpost: 20 August 2012  
1 comment  




216  The Signpost: 27 August 2012  
1 comment  




217  The Signpost: 03 September 2012  
1 comment  




218  The Signpost: 10 September 2012  
1 comment  




219  The Signpost: 17 September 2012  
1 comment  




220  The Signpost: 24 September 2012  
1 comment  




221  The Signpost: 01 October 2012  
1 comment  




222  The Signpost: 08 October 2012  
1 comment  




223  The Signpost: 15 October 2012  
1 comment  




224  The Signpost: 22 October 2012  
1 comment  




225  The Signpost: 29 October 2012  
1 comment  




226  The Signpost: 05 November 2012  
1 comment  




227  The Signpost: 12 November 2012  
1 comment  




228  The Signpost: 19 November 2012  
1 comment  




229  The Signpost: 26 November 2012  
1 comment  




230  The Signpost: 03 December 2012  
1 comment  




231  The Signpost: 10 December 2012  
1 comment  




232  The Signpost: 17 December 2012  
1 comment  




233  The Signpost: 24 December 2012  
1 comment  




234  The Signpost: 31 December 2012  
1 comment  




235  The Signpost: 07 January 2013  
1 comment  




236  The Signpost: 14 January 2013  
1 comment  




237  The Signpost: 21 January 2013  
1 comment  




238  The Signpost: 28 January 2013  
1 comment  




239  The Signpost: 04 February 2013  
1 comment  




240  The Signpost: 11 February 2013  
1 comment  




241  The Signpost: 18 February 2013  
1 comment  




242  The Signpost: 25 February 2013  
1 comment  




243  The Signpost: 04 March 2013  
1 comment  




244  The Signpost: 11 March 2013  
1 comment  




245  The Signpost: 18 March 2013  
1 comment  




246  The Signpost: 25 March 2013  
1 comment  




247  The Signpost: 01 April 2013  
1 comment  




248  The Signpost: 08 April 2013  
1 comment  




249  The Signpost: 15 April 2013  
1 comment  




250  The Signpost: 22 April 2013  
1 comment  




251  The Signpost: 29 April 2013  
1 comment  




252  The Signpost: 06 May 2013  
1 comment  




253  The Signpost: 13 May 2013  
1 comment  













User talk:Low Sea




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Re:What's normal ?

[edit]

The waiting time for a bot request, as well as whether or not it gets done at all, depends on several things. Most requests are relatively simple, asking for WikiProject tagging and so forth. In your case, you are asking for completely new code so you may have to wait a while. Additionally, as you said this would probably have to be run off of the toolserver and there are a limited number of people with toolserver accounts. In any case, bot operators will fulfill requests when they have time to do so, and like any other contributor devote time to requests that particularly interest them or strike them as being important first. So, it's basically completely unpredictable. I wouldn't be too discouraged yet though; it's only been about a day. Your request strikes me as the sort of thing that stands a good chance of getting done. About your providing suggested logic: I wouldn't worry about it. It could be helpful to the person who makes the bot, but even if it isn't I don't think it would scare anyone off. If no one responds in a week, you could leave another message so the request doesn't get archived; if a week after that there is still no response I'd just let it get archived and come back in a month or so. As in all things of this nature, be persistent without being a nuisance. (On an unrelated matter: When you archive your talk page, try to remember to blank the redirect after you move it. It was kind of confusing clicking on your talk page link and ending up at your archive.)--Dycedarg ж 15:10, 4 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Dycedarg, again all good advice and well presented. I think while I wait (as if I had nothing else to do .. haha) I might try to learn how to code my own bot. I have some older programming skills (Pascal, COBOL, various assemblers, etc) although I am not versed in most web languages (java, perl etc). Still, if time permits there is nothing lost by tinkering with code (offline of course) for fun and learning. Low Sea (talk) 16:29, 4 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

wp:vpa ?

[edit]

Hi, Low Sea. I added a response to your question at WP:VPA#Commercial News Archives. --Gwguffey (talk) 18:22, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

[edit]

Pardon, but what exactly is WQA? I looked at the page, but I've never heard of it before: what exactly are you asking me to do? Nyttend (talk) 17:56, 16 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  1. WP:WQA = Wikiquette Alert (don't blame me, I didn't nickname it)
  2. Just hoping you can route some WP helpers in this guy's direction if you know of any. I am willing to do what I can but I am still learning the ropes myself. I was hoping you might know of users who actually are good at mentoring clueless newbies. If he(she?) does not learn then he will eventually end up being disciplined for his many bad edits. That might chase him away. He seems industrious and that can be good if not done poorly. WP could use more editors like him if he cleans up his act. An ounce of prevention as they say. -- Low Sea (talk) 18:25, 16 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
[edit]

I support what you said about the rececent changes to the guideline and have reitterated what you said in the discussion.--Gavin Collins (talk) 10:04, 19 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

WP:DEL and WP:N

[edit]

Man, this is a thorny one. :)

OK. Let's start with the history of notability. The earliest form of a notability guideline I can find is 2004, here: [1]. It's still clearly a proposal at this stage. It reached its first policy form later in 2004 with this edit: [2]. This was before the policy/guideline distinction existed, and so the precise weight of the page is hard to express in current terms. Note, however, that this is very far from a notability guideline as such - in fact, it's basically a refusal to add any new policies. Notably, even this mild form was controversial at the time and was edit warred over. (This is another reason why WP:N will never attain policy status - its implementation was too vexed and controversial over time) In fact, importance never gained consensus. Finally [3] replaced it with WP:N on July 12, 2006.

Notability, however, began over a year before that with this edit: [4]. It was imported from Demi's userspace, where it was an essay for her personal use. It was a much, much harsher than importance, and begins to approach the current definition of notability, particularly in its last paragraph. The page rapidly evolved to become a place where the arguments about notability were summarized. It never reached policy in that form either. In December of 2006, it was also retired and a new page was started at the same location, this time ostensibly to cerate an actual policy. It began with [5] - a very simple description. By this time subject area inclusion guidelines had already been created - the music guideline, which I think was the earliest, actually predated any page at Wikipedia:Notability. [6]

So notability policy really grew from the bottom up - there was a lack of general consensus about notability, but local consensus formed on AfDs and in subject areas. It attained guideline status within a few weeks [7]. This also enshrined the current definition of notability in terms of sources.

OK. All of that done, we get WP:DEL. This page is much, much older than notability - it dates back to 2002. [8]. At the time that importance was started, the deletion policy did not mention any such concept: [9]. At the time notability was started, the page also did not mention any such concept [10] (though the phrase "completely idiosyncratic non-topic" appears, which is clearly a very low notability threshold). When notability was switched to guideline form the sub-guidelines like [{WP:MUSIC]] had been added to WP:DEL - [11]. In this case, however, they are clearly not added on the level of required deletion - the structure is "If the article has problem X, use Process Y to delete it." i.e. it is not a "delete non-notable articles," but "this is the right forum for notability deletions." Note the table name - problems that may require deletion.

This table was replaced in this edit: [12]. This edit served to change the wording to "reasons for deletion." The edit summary explicitly noted that this was NOT a change in meaning. I can find no discussion of the change from "may require deletion" to "reasons for deletion." I am therefore led to believe that the change in meaning was inadvertent.

So, summary - notability has a long and contested history where it has always been more popular in specific applications than as a general rule. It grew from the bottom up (a good way for policy to grow). The revision to effectively bootstrap notability to policy was inadvertent. Notability remains a guideline that describes current practice, not a proscriptive rule. Phil Sandifer (talk) 15:55, 22 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Do what you like. I'd ask Radiant about the revision as well - he may have insight into the logic on the change of wording. Phil Sandifer (talk) 20:17, 22 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

In the future

[edit]

Please note that it's considered polite to inform users of posts about them on ANI. (As the page header mentions). You can use the {{ANI-notice}} template, or just a quick note on the user's talk page. Best, --Bfigura (talk) 05:14, 29 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Noted and will do. This is my first time using ANI. Thanks for the advice. -- Low Sea (talk) 05:17, 29 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
No problem. My personal opinion on this is that Sarcastic's behavior is fine. Policy is pretty clear that edits by banned users may be reverted without discussion. (However, I can see how this could be confusing given the lack of detail in the edit summary.) Anyway, just my $0.02. Best, --Bfigura (talk) 05:32, 29 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The ANI thread

[edit]

Hi Low Sea - first of all, no offense taken at all. It is customary to inform people of ANI threads you open about them, but obviously not all editors are familiar with all Wikipedia customs, and I take you at your word that you just didn't know about that one. I also take you at your word that you have no problems with me personally; I have a similar lack of problem with you. As for my action, it's well-established that banned users' edits can (and generally, although not always, should) be reverted on sight (see WP:BAN#Enforcement_by_reverting_edits). Sarsaparilla is banned by community consensus (interestingly, I was the last admin to show any interest at all in unblocking him), so when I uncover another one of his socks I revert all of his edits that haven't been responded to (I don't gut existing conversations, since that would be silly). This includes deleting pages that he created; this is precisely why speedy deletion criterion G5 exists. I do agree with the central tenet of your ANI thread, that admins should be expected to follow rules scrupulously. This is why I consider myself an Eguor admin. I hope this addresses your concerns; if not, please don't hesitate to ask for further clarification. Sarcasticidealist (talk) 22:28, 29 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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New Thought article

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One particular editor seems determined to delete large sections of the New Thought article. Any insight, or references, would be helpful, Madman (talk) 18:24, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hi the article on Divine Science was removed.66.108.106.248 (talk) 23:53, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I located the last good copy of the article (now Church of Divine Science) and I restored it, adding a few footnotes and references, etc. Visit, enhance, &/or watch this article, please. Thanks, Madman (talk) 00:20, 16 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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An open letter to Hrafn,

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Hrafn,

I have tried hard to see the good you are trying to do and I have often overlooked your many emotional outbursts because I do see it sometimes. But your comments here[13] and here[14] are self-proclaimed evidence of totally unacceptable behaviour. I hope you will do some serious soul searching on what I have to say next...

I am about to tread uneasily over the line of civility and I regret it before I do it, I even apologize for doing it, but I see no other option. I must call a spade a spade in order to offer constructive criticism. Your public actions and the above public statements combine to form the living definition of a particular word I abhor using: the word "kibitzer". This is not a casually used slang term or a derogatory label, it is a dictionary word with a specific meaning (see here[15]) and I chose it because it accurately describes your specific behaviour.

You say you "never took responsibility to do the work" yet it seems to me that you have consistently volunteered to take on a great deal of responsibility to "improve the encyclopedia" by the advisory edits you make.

When others add bricks and other raw materials to the construction site of an article you say it is not your responsibility to actually use of those materials yourself. And you are right. If you do not wish make the effort to mix mortar, lift hods, lay bricks and build the thing that is your choice.

What is bothersome is that you then want to tell others how to build the structure when you are not willing to do the work. This makes you (at best) a very noisy bystander and (at worst) a very disruptive kibitzer. Look at the synonyms of this word and consider if that is the type of editor you wish to be seen as here. The image you project here also is your choice.

Worst of all however is your apparently gleeful statement that you have somehow made Wikipedia better by means of "threatening" the work of other editors using policies as a weapon! This is a violation of so many WP principals, policies, guidelines, and essays I can't even count them! A few of these violations that come to mind without effort are Assume Good Faith, Ownership of articles, Gaming the system, Wikilawyering, Disruptive editing, Abuse of process, and WP:POINT. I can certainly add more.

To verbally and physically (on WP) tear down others' efforts and yet not be willing to do the detailed work of building articles is not productive, it is not constructive. To then freely admit that you were glad to do so and that it was strategic to do so is by absolute and crystal clear definition both disruptive and destructive.

I regret having to use such harsh langauge to offer constructve critcism of your actions and suggest areas for improvement. Still, you are a good editor and I hope you will contemplate and reconsider your actions and attitudes. Take a moment right now and be WP:CALM. If you are willing to see what I have said is true, and can integrate this advice into you future actions, then I am sure we can build a better encyclopedia together. -- Low Sea (talk) 21:57, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I may have no business here, but the only unacceptable behavior I see is your accusation that Hrafn has had many emotional outbursts, with no evidence to support such an accusation. That would be a personal attack in my opinion.--Aunt Entropy (talk) 22:49, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Obviously I cannot have a private (unobserved) discussion at Wikipedia but I would prefer to have this be a discussion between he and I alone to help keep things calm. Never-the-less thank you for the comment. The outbursts are minor in the scope of this topic but if needed I can provide a great many examples. -- Low Sea (talk) 23:00, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

An equally open response to Low Sea

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  1. My "totally unacceptable behaviour" had a solid basis in WP:V: "The burden of evidence lies with the editor who adds or restores material." While it was blunt, you would have a hard time demonstrating a violation of WP:NPA, WP:CIVIL, or WP:AGF. Thus its 'unacceptability' would appear to be simply a case of WP:IDONTLIKEIT.
  2. I see nothing wrong with being accused of kibitzing. Wikipedia is built in part on kibitzing -- it's part of the self-review process that keeps the project honest. If you have WP:RS and policy on your side then it is generally not something to feel threatened by. It's only when you have neither on your side -- but want to keep the article anyway, that it becomes a serious threat -- as it should be.
  3. Your claim that I "have consistently volunteered to take on a great deal of responsibility to "improve the encyclopedia" by the advisory edits [I] make" has no basis in policy or common practice. Pointing out that something is in violation of policy is not volunteering to fix it. If it were, editors would be caught between the dilemma of not pointing out gross deficiencies, or taking on responsibility for far more than they can, even unreasonably, be expected to fix. As for "When others add bricks and other raw materials to the construction site of an article..." -- where these "materials" have been publicly accessible through the internet, I have cited them -- where they aren't there's very little I can do.
  4. As for being a "very noisy bystander and (at worst) a very disruptive kibitzer" -- when I have perfectly uncontroversial and purely style-improving edits reverted, without any basis in policy, it rather reduces my motives for making improvements myself. In any case, pointing out flagrant and ongoing violations of core policy is hardly valueless.
  5. "Threatening" non-compliant material with the recourse that policy establishes for non-compliance is hardly unreasonable. Policy is there for a reason, and failure to follow it has consequences. And demanding that policy be followed when it is perfectly clear on the subject is not WP:LAWYER.
  6. As for "tear[ing] down others' efforts" -- I would direct your attention to Wikipedia:No reliable sources, no verifiability, no article. While this is an essay not policy, it is a valid viewpoint, and one with a strong basis in policy.
  7. You addressed this as an open letter, so must needs accept the input of the wider wikipedia community. Aunt Entropy has pointed out, quite correctly, that you have neither facts nor policy on your side. To summarise an old legal adage, lacking the facts or the law on your side, you are merely 'pounding the table'.

HrafnTalkStalk 00:58, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You lay out a series of seven arguments which I will address individually below. To this end I have created a series of subsections to gradually be filled in. Please understand my replies will be evolved over a period of time and will not come all at once or even in order. This is partially for practical reasons of life and schedules and partially because I choose not to act with haste which would result in an emotionally charged flame war.

Patience and remaining calm and logical are more productive. I will be applying the principals of WP:COOL and WP:TIND to this conversation.

While your response makes it clear we do not agree it is my intent and hope that I can help you to see that the problems are very real. Frankly it appears we view the world of Wikipedia from very different perspectives and that is ok on content and even on contribution but on matters of behaviour I think it is essential that we (the community) share common values.

-- Low Sea (talk) 12:18, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Reply to 1 (+)

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Just to immediately clear the air on one small part of this, I have not accused you of WP:No personal attacks and I cannot recall ever seeing you engage in that behaviour. Likewise I hope you will agree that this entire topic is also not a personal attack, but rather a frank discussion of specific behaviours. -- Low Sea (talk) 12:25, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

My point was that you were accusing me of "totally unacceptable behaviour", without being able to demonstrate a violation (let alone a clear or egregious violation) of the three main behavioural policies. The result being that you don't have a leg to stand on, and that your own accusation could be considered a breach of WP:AGF. HrafnTalkStalk 01:50, 21 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
And my point was merely to take "one small part" (WP:NPA) off the table because that does not apply to you. This was only a partial response to the full issue of this paragraph. Please read my responses more carefully. -- Low Sea (talk) 13:08, 21 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Reply to 2

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Reply to 3

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Reply to 4 (+)

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I guess I am going to start with this item because it is the easiest to dismiss. Your arguments are fallacious and perhaps even disingenuous:


4.1) On the technical argument of "perfectly uncontroversial and purely style-improving edits reverted, without any basis in policy" you are the one in violation of WP:CITE, specifically Section 4.1 which states:

There are a number of citation styles and systems used in different fields, all including the same information, with different punctuation use, and with the order of appearance varying for the author's name, publication date, title, and page numbers. Any style or system is acceptable on Wikipedia so long as articles are internally consistent. You should follow the style already established in an article, if it has one; where there is disagreement, the style or system used by the first editor to use one should be respected.

Madman was the first editor of this article and his choice of citation style was to be respected per policy but you chose to determine that your prefered style was the "right" one. Had you undertaken the simple courtesy of discussing citation styles before making the change you might have avoided the issue. Perhaps a simple: "Madman, I would like to simplify the citation style in this article like this (example). Is that acceptable?"

Note that the result of such a discussion might have been to continue with Madman's choice but while you would not have gotten what you wanted that still would have been considered productive because it was a cooperative solution which avoided anything editwar-like. Avoiding editwars is highly desirable at Wikipedia and a generally considered a sign of maturity and cooperation between editors.


4.2) I need to successively reduce and paraphrase your comment to highlight the flaw.

ORIGINAL:

"... when I have perfectly uncontroversial and purely style-improving edits reverted, without any basis in policy, it rather reduces my motives for making improvements myself."

REDUCTION 1:

"... when I have [my work] reverted [...] it rather reduces my motives for making improvements myself."

REDUCTION 2:

"... when I [don't get my way] [then I don't want to play]."

On the surface this argument is petty and childish and yet it is human nature to be unhappy when our efforts fail. What is of far greater significance is the fact that you fail to recognize that the same behaviours which "reduce" your motivation also reduce the motivation of others. Do you ever stop to consider that when you tear apart another editor's work you are reducing their motivation to want to contribute? How many editors have left Wikipedia because of such demotivation? How does driving away willing contributors affect the mandate to always do everything in ways that improve the encyclopedia?

I offer you a suggestion for self-enlightenment, create a new essay as follows... Create a user subpage and do a line-by-line analysis of WP:BITE. Contrast that behaviour guideline to your personal editting processes. Be honest with yourself and link to examples of where you have (and have not) applied WP:BITE. If your analysis is honest I think you will be shocked at the results.


4.3) "... pointing out flagrant and ongoing violations of core policy is hardly valueless."

I agree, identifying weaknesses does add value to WP. However the manner in which you do it -- your behaviour -- is the issue. Wikipedia is supposed to be a cooperative effort, not an adversarial one. This is the reason that consensus versus majority voting is demanded by core policy. "Threats", "swords", and disrespect create not just a poor environment but a hostile one.

You are "big" on policy so allow me to point out one that you have missed... WP CIVILITY - Section 9 starts with this powerful single sentence: Treat your fellow editor as a respected and admired colleague, who is working in collaboration with you on an important project. This is not an ambiguous statement of "treat some editors one way and others another", it is an absolute policy that ALL editors are to be interacted with in a manner that emulates respect and admiration.

This does not mean you have to like them or agree with them. Nor does it mean vandals are to be treated with respect since they act against improving the encyclopedia. But every editor who acts in good faith is to be accorded collegial status per this policy, and failing clear evidence to the contrary every editor is to be given the assumption of good faithatall times. Long before Wikipedia existed I was taught this lesson so allow me to pass on the wisdom that was shared with me:

Many years ago when I was a young supervisor I had a person on my crew who was a very poor worker (a sad-sack, a good-for-nothing). I was constantly having to reprimand him for poor performance and I grew to dread even talking to him. One day my manager pulled me aside and said "I have seen the way you talk with him and it is very disrespectful!" I tried to protest that he was a very poor worker and her response was "It doesn't matter. Even poor workers are human beings who deserve basic respect in a professional environment." What she was telling me was just because he was a turkey did not give me the right to be an ass. She was right. I told her I understood what she wanted but I wasn't sure how to treat him with respect when his work was so substandard. This is when she gave me one of the most important lessons of my life...

She asked the following questions: "Would you ever speak to me the way you speak to him? (No.) Would you ever speak to my boss, the General Manager, the way you speak to him? (No.) Would you ever speak to the Vice-President of the company the way you speak to him? (No!) Why not? (Because you would all fire me if I did!) So why is it OK to speak to him that way? Because he can't fire you?!? Whenever you speak to him I want you to use the same tone and attitude you would use as if you were speaking to the VP. That is what I mean by basic respect."

I have never forgotten that. I use it every day. And once I started acting that way to the "good-for-nothing" worker I also began to see what he was doing right ... instead of only the things he was doing wrong. In time he became one of our hardest working people because I was able to separate my emotions from my discussions with him and I was able to give him useful and palatable feedback to improve his performance.

My suggestion to you Hrafn is to do another self-enlightening essay as in 4.2 above and contrast your behaviour to ALL of WP:CIVIL - Section 9, especially that first sentence. -- Low Sea (talk) 17:24, 20 May 2008 (UTC) I also suggest you should start treating ALL editors the way you treat your favorite college professor, your parents, Jimbo, or whomever else you respect and admire. -- Low Sea (talk) 17:51, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]


Reply to 5

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Reply to 6

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Reply to 7

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Misc replies

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An open final response to Low Sea

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Given that you appear to have no basis in policy for your behavioural points, and are yourself repeatedly (and in one case egregiously) violating WP:AGF, I am declaring WP:POT and calling this lengthy farce to a close, and am removing this page from my watchlist. You are of course free to continue to make baseless accusations, but any passing admin is also free to block you for it, if they think your actions merit it. HrafnTalkStalk 02:02, 21 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

TO HRAFN (IF YOU COME BACK HERE)
Sigh... OK, go ahead and "declare WP:POT" and say this discussion is a "farce". I think you just proved my point (in topic #4.2 above) for me. I am going to (at the end of this reply) "declare" WP:TRUCE and go cool off as I stated in my introduction that I would do. I have entered a clarification reply on topic #1 above and I note that while you say I have "no basis in policy" you chose not to reply to topics #4.1 and #4.3 above which examples your violation of WP:CITE section 4.1 and WP:CIVIL section 9 respectively, yet oddly you did reply to topic 4.2 so I know you read the section. Also, was a Exclamation Point icon really necessary there? This is an example of what I mean when talk about emotional outbursts but I am sure you can probably cite some obscure legal wikilaw that says using inflamatory icons inside a discussion is policy. OK ... I am getting rude and I apologize for that last remark. Time to respect the ideas in WP:TRUCE and WP:COOL and go paint my toenails for a little while. -- Low Sea (talk) 13:50, 21 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Smile

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Low Sea, your comment on my talk page has given me great positive energy as well as insightful suggestions. I want to return the favour, and pass along the smile given me by Tinucherian, by brightening your talk page with a smile. I've added a message to you to my Thank you for participating in my RfA section, and I've also replied further below your comment here. Coppertwig (talk) 22:50, 21 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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WPPageHistStat

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Hi, I do not want to publish the source code of this program (at the moment). -- Aka (talk) 08:36, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Spirituality category changes

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My apologies if my actions have been disruptive and thank you for informing me. The spirituality category has a tag on it that it tends to become overpopulated and so I removed the spirituality tag from some individual articles that already appeared at other points within the spirituality category tree. Those articles are all still within the the spirituality category - just at a slightly lower place in the category tree. The categories the articles are in are all in the spirituality category themselves. Most of the articles were the lead articles to categories that themselves appear directly under the spirituality domain (eg spiritualism article is in spiritualism category which is an immediate subcategory of spirituality. So nothing's actually been removed from spirituality at all. But again, my apologies if my actions have been disruptive

BTW, I've just noted from your user page that you have a particular concern with the New Thought movement. I did move several of their pages and they had to go a couple of places down the category tree because of where the current subcategories are. May I suggest that you either move the New Thought sub-category up the tree so that it's directly under spirituality or simply place just the lead article for New Thought in the Spirituality category if that's your main concern? Spirituality is quite a high domain category so every single article under its domain cannot appear there - most of them will need to be in sub-categories. Dakinijones (talk) 09:02, 3 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for withdrawing your ANI complaint. And thanks too for your very helpful suggestions re using my page to explain any mass category changes. I shall definitely do that in future. As far as I'm aware though, I have no control, over the edit summary HotCat uses (maybe you know of a Category tool I could use that does?) But at least if there's something on my page, then anyone with concerns about category changes would find a ready explanation of why they had occurred.
  • As to your other question, I have no other Wiki accounts I have edited under, in this name or any other. I may have edited anonymously a couple of times before I opened this account in 2007. I recently made an anonymous edit on Wiktionary. That and my Dakinijones edits are the sum of my Wiki format contributions (although I did edit for a while with the Guttenberg Project at Distributed Proofreaders if that's of any interest to you). Apparently my experience may not fit your assumption of what is required to have the skill you attribute to me, but nonetheless I appreciate the implied compliment and thank you for it. Dakinijones (talk) 09:05, 4 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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Bio edit

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I noticed you recently edited the article on (David Mertz) me to wikilink to OVC. That seems useful (do other [former] board members have articles? Karl Auerbach must, at least. FWIW, my term on the board has expired, so if you felt like saying it was (I think 2005-2007) that I served as board/CTO, that would be more accurate. On a similar line, I wonder if I could ask you to make an edit that indicates my current membership in the Python Software Foundation, I guess this could be cited as http://www.python.org/psf/members/. Obviously, I'm wary of WP:COI too, but if those seem correct to you...(P.S. Do I know you by another name connected with OVC? Feel free to email me if you don't want to chat on this WP talk page about that... or not to at all, of course). LotLE×talk 22:52, 18 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Signpost updated for July 14 and 21, 2008.

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Signpost updated for July 28, August 9, 11 and 18, 2008.

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Sorry I haven't been sending this over the past few weeks. Ralbot (talk) 06:27, 23 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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Please take a look

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Comments, addition,s, corrections, and updated requested. Catherineyronwode (talk) 21:56, 4 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Signpost updated for August 25 and September 8, 2008.

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MTBE bot

[edit]

Sorry for not replying to this before. Pulling the x characters from before a tag is simple, but displaying a message as you suggest would pollute the article. Changing the templates again is simple, but the value of the MTBE is dubious, Some articles are visited a lot, but not by experts. Nonetheless we need some techniques for dealing with the underlying problems that these tags expose. Rich Farmbrough, 14:45 6 October 2008 (UTC).

Please provide sources

[edit]

Can you provide some sources that could be cited in order to get rid of the undue weight mentioned here? Thanks, Simultaneous movement (talk) 02:38, 21 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Signpost updated for November 17, 2008 and before.

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Because the Signpost hasn't been sent in a while, to save space, I've condensed all seven issues that were not sent into this archive. Only the three issues from November are below.

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I found some articles. Please let me know when you've successfully downloaded them.--droptone (talk) 13:22, 18 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Signpost updated for November 24, 2008 through January 3, 2009

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Three issues have been published since the last deliver: November 24, December 1, and January 3.


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Wikipedia Signpost, January 10, 2009

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Wikipedia Signpost, January 17, 2009

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Wikipedia Signpost, January 24, 2009

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Wikipedia Signpost, January 31, 2009

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Wikipedia Signpost, February 8, 2009

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Wikipedia Signpost — February 16, 2009

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Wikipedia Signpost — February 23, 2009

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This week, the Wikipedia Signpost published volume 5, issue 8, which includes these articles:

The kinks are still being worked out in a new design for these Signpost deliveries, and we apologize for the plain format for this week.

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Wikipedia Signpost — 2 March 2009

[edit]

This week, the Wikipedia Signpost published volume 5, issue 9, which includes these articles:

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Wikipedia Signpost — 9 March 2009

[edit]

This week, the Wikipedia Signpost published volume 5, issue 10, which includes these articles:

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    The Wikipedia Signpost: 28 September 2009

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    The Wikipedia Signpost: 5 October 2009

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    The Wikipedia Signpost: 12 October 2009

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    Hello there. This is an automated message to tell you about the gradual phasing out of the preference entitled "Mark all edits minor by default", which you currently have (or very recently had) enabled.

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  • Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Low_Sea&oldid=1166513645"





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